Russ: [00:00:00] Thanks for downloading the 16th in our series of episodes of the csuite podcast that we’re recording in partnership with the European PR agency Tyto, and their own ‘Without Borders’ podcast, where we are interviewing leaders of unicorn companies to find out about the key issues, pain points and challenges that start-ups face and how they can address them with a strategic approach to marketing and communications. My name is Russell Goldsmith and my co-host for this series of interviews is Tyto’s founder, Brendon Craigie. And today we’re thrilled to be joined online from Boston in the US by Pedro Bados, Co-founder and CEO of Nexthink, a company that specialises in digital employee experience management software. Nexthink has headquarters in Boston and also in Lausanne in Switzerland, and they reached unicorn status in February 2021, so this year, after it announced a $180 million series D funding found, reaching a valuation of $1.1 Billion. Welcome to the show Pedro, do you want to start by giving us a quick introduction to the business?
Pedro: [00:01:00] Sure, thank you Russell and thanks for having me. Introduction about the business, as you said, Nexthink is the pioneer and one of the leaders in digital employee experience and basically what that means is we make sure that employees, they have a great digital experience with their companies. It’s a pretty straightforward definition of the value because any interaction that an employee has today with his companies will be digital. However, most of the companies, they still consider IT as one way, I would say, putting services out there and not really understanding employees, they have problems with how they are adopting these services. So, we make sure that IT departments and companies in general, they are providing these IT services that they can really delight and be adopted by their employees.
Brendon: [00:01:49] That’s great, Pedro. Thinking back to the origins of the company, I understand you founded the company back in 2004 when you were at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne in Switzerland. What was the inspiration back then for you to launch the business in the first place?
Pedro: [00:02:07] I think Nexthink has been a story of resilience and change, it’s not been an overnight success. I say that with really lot of proudness. The reason why we launched the business is really because we, at that time I was conducting my research project at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, and it was something more related with security. So, we’re trying to understand the normal behaviour of computers. So, we followed these analysis of behavior changes. There is probably an identity theft and all that. And actually, we went to the first customer and then we showcased our product where it was kind of a prototype at that time and the customer reacted ‘Oh, that’s great to understand all the security incidents. But actually, the data is even more important for me to understand if my employees, they are consuming my services, if they’re having problems, you know, all of these blue screens, all these problems that I’m seeing here in the screen are really critical for me because that means people can do their jobs properly’. And that was kind of the moment in which we said, ‘Wow, it’s really kind of a contradiction. The number one customer for an IT department is the internal employee, and they don’t really have all the information that they need to make sure they deliver a great service.’ And then that’s why we started. As I said, it was not overnight. It took us a few years to understand the market. And then the adventure started.
Brendon: [00:03:32] And if you kind of think about your vision and mission today, when did you completely land on that or has it kind of evolved over those 16, 17 years?
Pedro: [00:03:40] Yeah, I think it’s been really, like any good story’s made of chapters. Right? So, the first chapter probably and you know, back in 2004, 2005 in Europe, start-ups was not really something that the market was aware of, companies that were really were not really buying for start-ups. So, at the very beginning, we kind of bootstrapped the business with the founders and a few early employees. And it was mainly security that I would say the first three or four years. And then it was a little bit later when we understood really the power and the potential of digital employee experience market. That was probably 2009, 2010. But at that time, you know, there was a big crisis. I can remember. So obviously in terms of raising money and all that, it was difficult. So, I would say probably around 2011, 2012, we were still below, I would say 10 million in revenues in which we got funding. And then we kind of expanded the business to other countries. And then 2015/16, we had a Series B and then basically the company grew exponentially.
Brendon: [00:04:46] I’m guessing that amongst all of that you’ve just explained, have you kind of taken any lessons away from that? Because, you know, like you say there has been a real story of resilience and I’m guessing the industry has evolved around you. Do you draw any lessons from that experience that you would pass on to other people?
Pedro: [00:05:06] Yeah, many lessons and especially today, with this craziness in the market, I mean some giant entrepreneurs, they might think that success has to come overnight. And if the company is not successful in a few years, we have to stop and do something else. Look, I mean, we went through highs and lows and here we are with one of the highest valuations for an infrastructure software company in Europe. And it’s still I think we’re very bullish about our growth in the next years to come. And I think resilience is probably one of the most important attributes of a company and entrepreneur. And I think that’s a very important lesson for us. There are many lessons that we learned during the adventure of Nexthink.
Russ: [00:05:43] Just coming back to what I mentioned at the top of the show about achieving unicorn status in February. How would you say that’s changed the perception of the business?
Pedro: [00:05:53] I would say probably it’s similar to, I personally, I like soccer. I think it’s similar to when you start playing in the Champions League. Obviously, people are very proud of playing for one of the main teams, but also the expectations are higher. So, the expectations is to really now become one of the champions in our league. And obviously, the stakes are higher. The investors are more ambitious. So, I would say everything is like a new level in the game, which is very exciting, especially for me. When you are running a business, what you want to do is really to, as I said before, to open a new chapter with new challenges and potentially, higher challenges and goals. And that’s exactly the moment in which we are. And the valuation is not so important, but it’s kind of a landmark. So, people they can say, ‘Oh, I’m a unicorn. So now I’ve reached a certain milestone and I can focus on the next chapter.’
Russ: [00:06:50] Was that more of a challenge coming out of Switzerland? Because there’s only a few unicorns that were founded there compared to say, in the States where you are now.
Pedro: [00:06:58] I think it’s a little bit more challenging because I think one of the things that are really critical for a company is really initially, but I think at any stage is really the people, the teams. The thing with Switzerland and Europe in general is there are not so many people that they have made it before in our particular market. So, these teams, they have to learn while they grow because they have not done any two or three other companies. Therefore, it’s a little bit harder to a scale. So, it could be a little bit more challenging than in other areas, the US in which they have done it a few times. They have this pattern recognition, and they can scale easily. Yeah, I would say it’s a little bit more challenging, but here we are.
Russ: [00:07:40] And so just coming back to this focus on the employee digital experience, obviously, looking at your website and looking at what you do, your clients can actually gain a what you call a ‘Nexthink digital employee experience score’. Can you just talk us through how that works and what you would define as the optimal DEX score, as you put it?
Pedro: [00:08:00] Yes, absolutely. Just before that, I mean, I think it’s interesting to understand the relevance of this digital employee experience and I think right now we are seeing in the market something which is really, I would say, different from probably 20, 30, 40 years ago and these great employees, they have choices. They can work for any company. So, companies are really worried about talent retention and really how they can attract the best talent. And once this talent is there, how they can make sure, they stay with the company for many years. And when they analyse why people are leaving companies, it has nothing to do with salaries or sometimes managers. It’s really this feeling of getting the job done, getting the job accomplished, which is kind of making a lot of people leave companies. And when they analyse why people are leaving companies, which is obviously a big problem for the business, talent retention, they see that one third is related to tools, processes, technology. So, there are many companies that are saying, ‘Wow, I mean, especially new generations, they are coming in and they expect really to have great processes, great digital tools, great digital interactions with their companies’. And if they don’t have it, they get frustrated and they change. And that’s why digital employee experience is really important. Now, one of the first questions around digital employee experience is how to quantify it, because we are all very used to, for instance, the Glassdoor score or the NPS or when we read a financial statement revenue or PNL. But there are no really good metrics about digital, how people are perceiving the digital experience. And one of the things that we, one of the first things that we did is really try to standardize this market and saying we need a score and what we call the digital employee experience score. And I think it’s a little bit complex, but actually the philosophy is simple. So, it’s based on hard data. So based on metrics, how digital systems they are operating, response times, problems, things that we can detect automatically. But there is another 50 percent, which is based on sentiment, how people are perceiving things. So, it’s very important to engage with employees. Are you happy with your computer? Are you happy with this application? Do you feel productive with these types of systems? So, putting them together into a simple score in our case is based on six different dimensions. That gives really a very important tool for a company to make decisions about how to improve the digital employee experience.
Brendon: [00:10:38] And that whole digital experience score Pedro, is that kind of something that sets you apart from your competitors?
Pedro: [00:10:45] Well, I think the different competitors, I mean, we were one of the first, if not the first, to really put out there a score, a comprehensive score, we have seen other competitors and other companies putting out their score. All of them, they are based on the similar philosophy, which is really hard data and sentiment. I think we have probably the most advanced technology for engagement. So, the ability to really get the sentiment information from employees. So, our scores, we believe that they are more accurate, representing the real feeling of the organisation. So, I would say probably they’re more accurate, but there are other companies that they have these digital experience scores. And I think the scores is one thing, but how to react to the scores, what we call the playbooks. So, what happens if all of a sudden you see that your users are not happy in productivity applications? How do you take an action? I think that’s something which is a differentiating factor for Nexthink because we link their score with really actions and that’s what we see that our customers really appreciate. It’s great to have the information, but now we have to take action.
Russ: [00:11:56] How do you think the impact has been over the last year or so with so many more people working remotely and in lots of cases, using their own their own equipment, their own PCs, their own laptops, for example, or their mobile phone, but to do their work. So how does that impact on their digital employee experience score, bearing in mind they might not be actually accessing work through work supplied tools?
Pedro: [00:12:21] Well, the impact has been massive because, as a consumer, we are used to enjoying real time information from Google, Facebook, our iPads, but actually the reality of an employee in a big company is quite different. They have legacy systems. There are millions of people working from desktops that they couldn’t take the desktops home. Many legacy, as I said, applications developed on-prem and everything has to work from home. So, from an office of five hundred people, IT departments, they had to support 500 offices of one person, right? And everything has to work fine because still people have to be productive. So, from the technology standpoint, what’s really challenging, especially the first phase and we were able to put out there what we call the ‘remote worker pack’. So, people were able to monitor that everything was working well, the Wi-Fi at home, the different applications, that people had the right laptops because, many companies they were buying hardware for their employees at home. So, helping really to make decisions quickly for companies to make sure they didn’t stop the production. So that’s one area. And then after a couple of months or three months, we had a lot of demand for really almost HR business cases, wellness burnouts, making sure people are not, abusing of the digital world with too many Zoom calls and just check ins. I want to use Nexthink Engage, which is this ability to measure sentiment, not only to measure sentiment about the digital application, but also to see if people are doing well and they did something else. So, a little bit outside of our core market. But because we have this real time capability to engage with people based on their behaviour and based on what they do, I think many people were using them. So, for us, it’s been really a massive transformation. And as a digital employee experience company, now most of the interactions are digital. So, we are almost an employee experience company.
Russ: [00:14:46] So have you adapted your offering in that time?
Pedro: [00:14:30] Yeah, absolutely. So, we have more and more use cases around HR and I think the frontier between HR and IT has become really closed because most of the problems in IT now is trying to figure out, “OK, how do we do the conference rooms so people can collaborate in a hybrid environment from home, but also in the office? How we can make sure that people can work from home? Do they have their applications? Should we really have more SaaS applications?’ And things like that. So, it’s between HR and IT and we are really in the middle of both.
Brendon: [00:15:03] It sounds like the Covid pandemic’s had quite a big impact on your business. I was just curious to know there seems to be a lot of companies moving in the direction of the hybrid model.
Pedro: [00:15:13] Yep.
Brendon: [00:15:14] Do you envisage any additional new challenges for businesses as part of that? How do you think that will impact your business?
Pedro: [00:15:22] There are a couple of challenges that us as a company, but I hear that from many customers. So, as I said before, operationally, I think it’s very hard to, for instance, to run meetings in a hybrid environment in which you have a few people working from home and a few people in a meeting room. People working from home… They’re like of second-class citizens. They don’t have the same interaction. And that’s a problem that we have to fix. As in hybrid organisations, how we can run these hybrid meetings, that’s one thing. Another thing I think it’s important is really the talent piece, so because there are so many people now that they work from home, they are not really attached to an office. For them, it’s very easy to switch and to go to another company because they don’t have this personal attachment. So how companies, they can really make employees feel that they care about them, that they are important, that they are part of a culture. So, I think Covid has kind of exposed some of the weaknesses in this area as well. Also, I think many people are thinking about the offices in general, not only the conference rooms, but really, they are more social hubs or are really traditional offices, with closed offices and things like that. So, there is a lot of thinking around that. So definitely there is a lot of change going on for Nexthink, but for any company in the world.
Brendon: [00:16:51] Yeah, I think there’s so many interesting points you’ve touched on there about the impact on loyalty when you don’t have to go to an office and that kind of shrinking of the gap between HR and technology. I totally, totally identify with that. Thinking about where you go from here now then. So, you’ve kind of reached the unicorn milestone. What’s the next kind of horizon? The next target for you and the business?
Pedro: [00:17:15] Well, obviously, the stage in which we are now, I think our existing investors, they are and the management team, I mean, we are thinking about potentially an IPO in the years to come. That would be great for the employees as for visibility in the company, I think, with the partners, customers. That’s an interesting milestone. I think growing the business, we are just scratching the surface. I mean, we think it’s about a five to seven billion opportunity right now. So we are, in the five, 10 percent of the market opportunity. So, we can really have a still continuing, delivering digital experience to many companies in the world. I think we want to make the companies smarter in the way they provide applications in general, I would say in user computing to their employees. So, make sure they make the right decisions, they buy the right applications, they buy the right hardware, they buy the right things for employees. They include the employee into the equation. Something very interesting is, in the past, the traditional world of IT has been, I know what is the best for my employee, I do it, I deliver it, and good luck. And right now, they are thinking, OK, maybe I should include the employee in my thinking process. So, gathering feedback, doing a first prototype, launching an application for a few employees, gathering feedback from them, including really the employee as a part of the solution, not really at the end as a consumer of a solution. It’s very similar to what many companies are doing, launching a product, listening to the social, understanding what social media is saying. So, fostering a partnership between employees and IT department, I think it’s super important to build the technology of the future in companies, and that’s something that we are seeing more and more.
Russ: [00:19:11] Pedro a key part of the discussions we’re having with all the unicorn leaders is on comms and culture within the business. So just starting on communications, you just mentioned there about I think you said you’re at five percent of your potential market. I mean, what are you doing to raise further awareness of the company in terms of your marketing and PR?
Pedro: [00:19:29] Well, what happens sometimes is that especially in new categories, that people know the problem, but they don’t know really there is a solution. So, I think linking the problem with the solution. And making sure that people understand that this is a big problem. Just got the statistics the other day, on average, there is two incidents per employee per week and each of these incidents is twenty-eight minutes. So that means on average, every employee in a company, they waste one hour of time because of a technology problem. So that’s literally millions of productivity losses even for a company of 10,000 people. So, this problem is big from the financial standpoint, but then you have the attrition problem, the employee productivity problem. So, telling that this is really a big problem and there is a solution for that, or there is a patch for that, I think is something that we are constantly communicating. We’re going to launch a big initiative now, which is going to be a hub in which IT professionals, executives, they can go and speak about this problem. We have actually our own podcast to really tell the market and bring leaders that they want to talk about digital employee experience. There are many initiatives that as with our customers and partners, we are putting in place to talk about this domain.
Brendon: [00:20:46] That’s great. I loved what you were saying there about letting people know that there is a solution to the problem. How have you found building company culture in such a fast-moving company and fast-growing company?
Pedro: [00:20:57] It’s been an interesting journey, I think, for us probably has been a little bit easier because, our mission is very much about people, we say our mission is delight people at work because this is what we do for our customers, they make sure that they can delight their employees at work. But also, we do it internally with our employees and also, we do it with our community. So, there is these three ways of delighting people at work, and that really creates this sense of mission. We want to make sure people have a delightful experience when they work. And then, of course, we are very clear about the values, our four core values. So, I think we didn’t put these values out there just saying, “Oh, this is what we would like.” But actually, we looked backwards. And when we tried to understand what makes a great Nexthinker great. And understand what is a successful employee in our company, and then getting this DNA and then putting these four values in our case it’s positive attitude, one team, continuous growth and get things done. That’s the four things we say is really shaping a great Nexthinker. And then I think all of that is kind of creating a culture. We are also very international, as you said at the beginning, we are binational with headquarters in Boston and in Lausanne, but also, we have offices around the world, including India and other places. So very diverse, I think almost 800 people. And then we speak, I think 80 different languages. You look at the management team it’s probably four or five different languages and six, seven different countries. So, it’s very diverse. And I think that’s also shaping up the culture here.
Russ: [00:22:39] So how are you actually communicating with all those different people, like you said, spread out geographically, I guess lots of people still currently working from home as well. So, for those who are in one location but still not seeing each other and also, I’m assuming you’ve expanded over the last year, because a lot of the companies that we’ve spoken to where they’re onboarding people that haven’t even met their new colleagues or even been in one of the offices yet. And it’s just that whole, building a culture when people aren’t actually working together. How are you getting across all those challenges?
Pedro: [00:23:13] Yeah, I think it’s, the way of explaining it sometimes it’s a little bit like following the example of the soccer team. I mean, you don’t know anyone from your probably your favourite football team, but you feel attached to that. I think it’s very important the communication, what we stand for, as I said before, and that’s really something that you cannot fake it. People, they feel it when they interact with other people in the company. Multiple initiatives, for instance, we are doing really if we say we care about diversity, if we say we care about employee experience, we have to take actions. So, we have to run, for instance, multiple webinars about the problem so people can get educated, internal webinars, inviting external speakers about the problem of diversity and why it matters. If we care about employee experience, we have to make sure that when somebody joins the company, the onboarding process is just great, it’s not on the average, it’s just great. So, there’s these moments that matter for a new employee, which somebody is giving him or giving her a call. Are you doing OK? So, all of these processes, they have to be in place. And I think part of the success in my opinion is not really an HR job. It’s really a top management job. HR is executing some of these things. But everybody should care really about it. And then the rest of it. I think many companies, they did it. So, we make sure that people, they have a great experience in events. We try to over communicate with newsletters. We have something which is called Next in Life every month, which me and some other people, they jump, and we tell everything that’s going on in the company. And then sometimes the communication has to be very local. So, we try to do town halls in every region in which they have very specific questions and very specific needs. And then we have to go there as an executive team and make sure they feel that they are listened to.
Russ: [00:25:06] Yeah, I was going to ask I was wondering how accessible you are as a leader of the company, because obviously, in that start-up mode where everyone’s mucking in together, but then obviously as the company expands, your role becomes obviously bigger and bigger. So how accessible are you to all the employees?
Pedro: [00:25:21] I try to be very accessible, I think I attended so far, all the welcome days, so every single employee who has joined Nexthink at least has had the opportunity to talk to me on a welcome day in a small group, the same with the rest of the executives. So, this is really mandatory for all executives to attend a welcome day to make sure that new employees, they understand, and they can ask questions to the leadership team. And yes, I mean, for instance, something that I have in place, which is called Darwin because Darwin is about evolution and growing, is a mailbox in which any employee can send me any idea and I commit that, I will reply personally to him. So, any idea about anything in the company, they can send it to Darwin@nextthink.com and then I will reply then with, “Yeah, that’s a good idea and here’s the person who’s going to implement it” or “That’s not the right time.” So, I try to do these types of things.
Russ: [00:26:18] I love that. And what about as an external spokesperson and representative of the business? How does that feel? Because, again, we’ve spoken to some leaders that, they’ll come up with a great idea, they might be technology based, but they’ve never really enjoyed that front facing part of the business. Is that something that comes naturally to you? And do you enjoy that part of the business?
Pedro: [00:26:39] I think I’m in the middle of the spectrum, so definitely I like spending a lot of time with customers, with partners to make sure they’re successful. I enjoy really doing things like this interview today and podcasts. But I’m not someone who really thinks success is coming from speaking too much externally. I think success is coming from great products, customers that are getting value, employees that they are engaged. And I tend to spend more time there than really speaking to the broad audience outside. So, I think it’s kind of a balance.
Brendon: [00:27:14 One thing I think we have to ask you about Pedro is you’ve kind of touched on your interest in soccer a couple of times. Who is your soccer team?
Pedro: [00:27:21] Barcelona.
Brendon: [00:27:22] Going through a bit of a difficult patch at the moment.
Pedro: [00:27:24] Yes, yes, next question!
Brendon: [00:27:29] I’m sorry I’m not trying to put you off your flow. So, just thinking about communications and challenges and things. What’s the biggest communications challenge you’ve had to deal with other than that last question?
Pedro: [00:27:40] I think the biggest challenge is that as the company grows, you have to be really mindful about the things you say and you really have to mean it, because people they really listen to you. When you are smaller, I think they don’t listen too much, but at some point, you know, employees and all that. So, whatever I say, I don’t think it can be like emotional. And one day I think one thing and the next day I think something different. There has to be some stability in the communication because people they really pay attention, and they react. So that’s something I guess any founder has to learn as the company scales.
Russ: [00:28:20] Talking of challenges, when we were putting this, the planning for this podcast, I discovered that you actually only just moved your family to Boston just recently. So, it was March last year, just before the start of lockdown. So how has that been as a challenge in terms of moving a young family to a new country at this current climate?
Pedro: [00:28:39] Yeah, no, it was I think everybody has a different story unfortunately with the Covid and the lockdown. In my case, yeah, I moved with my family just one week before the lockdown. I remember I dropped off my daughters to the kindergarten on Monday. And Friday was the last day of kindergarten, the first week. So, it’s been rough for a few months. But look, I think in the last few months, especially here in the US, which the vaccinations are really now almost done in a big part. The country is opening up, I think it’s just great. I feel very happy to have done this move. My family is really excited about the opportunity in the US personally and professionally and yeah, and I think we are good, but obviously the first year was tough personally. And I think from the company’s standpoint, many employees, they were struggling and still they are, by the way, I mean, I don’t want to because right now I live in the US, things are better here. But when you look at what’s going on in India, in which we have many employees still, it’s something that is, we are taking it very seriously and we really care about our employees there and we’re putting initiatives to make sure they go through this period as good as they can as well.
Russ: [00:29:53] That’s good to hear.
Pedro: [00:29:54] But it’s been good. Thank you.
Russ: [00:29:55] Pedro, we got one final question for you, which we’ve asked everyone that we’ve interviewed. If you would go back in time and speak to your old self, what guidance would you give yourself about communications? And also, what steps would you encourage yourself to take in order for you and your business to excel in comms?
Pedro: [00:30:11] Yeah, I would say, because I come from an engineering background. Engineers, we tend to be a little bit, you know, oh, whatever I say, I have to do it. We are conservative, we are more about being worried to over commit instead of trying to impact emotions and sell the dream. And I think probably to my young Pedro, I would have been a little bit more vocal on selling the vision and selling the dream. That’s one thing that I learned. And because I had this dream and I had this vision, but probably I kept it for myself because there was always a risk. So, taking risks, especially when you communicate internally and making people dream, I think is very important.
Russ: [00:30:56] Tremendous. Thanks so much for joining us online and recording this today. Really, really appreciate it. And yeah, good luck in the continued growth.
Pedro: [00:31:04] Thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
Russ: [00:31:08] Brendon, that was a good one. What did you think of what Pedro had to say?
Brendon: [00:31:11] Yeah, I really enjoyed that conversation. I guess, as an entrepreneur myself on a small scale, I really enjoyed his point around resilience, because I think within the world of technology, there is kind of like a sense that you have to make it within a year or two or your business is really not worth pursuing. But I think, his story and the story of Nexthink really shows that, if you are resilient and you kind of have something which has a long-term value, then it’s definitely worth pursuing.
Russ: [00:31:46] That’s a good point, actually, because a lot of times when you read about unicorns and stuff it’s often this, “Oh, it’s an overnight success” and stuff but actually 2004 is when he started.
Brendon: [00:31:57] Yeah. So, I think that was really interesting. And then from a communication standpoint, I thought the point he made at the end when he was saying that as a CEO, what you say you have to really mean it. It’s kind of words are cheap. It’s really easy to go around saying things and promising things and, saying that you believe in this, but you have to really believe in it and you have to stand behind those words and follow through them. Otherwise, you’ll very quickly get found out. So, I thought that was a really key point that Pedro made.
Russ: [00:32:33] Okay, well, that’s it for this latest episode in this special series with Tyto. If you want to find out more about Nexthink, then their website is simply Nexthink.com. We’d love to hear your comments on today’s chat. You can share them on our Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram or Twitter feeds or in the comments of the YouTube version of this podcast. And those are all linked from the top of our website at csuitepodcast.com, where you’ll also find all our previous shows and supporting show notes plus links to where you can follow us for automatic downloads of each episode via the likes of Spotify and Apple. And if you’ve liked what you’ve heard, then please do give us a positive rating and review. We’re, of course, available on all podcast apps, just search for the csuite podcast and hit follow or subscribe. You can also subscribe to the Without Borders podcast from our partners at Tyto, and all the details for that are on their website. Just head to TytoPR and click on the podcast link in the top navbar. If you are a unicorn leader yourself and you’d like to be part of this series, please do get in touch via the contact form on the website at csuitepodcast.com. Plus, of course, anyone can get in touch with us with any feedback you may have. And finally, you can also reach me via Twitter using at @russgoldsmith or you can find me on LinkedIn. But for now, thanks for listening and goodbye.